In conversation with Abhishek Dubey - Part 2

Part two of the conversation with Abhishek. To read part one of this conversation – click here.

Many of the questions that he struggles with, I struggle with too. Some I had thought I had put to peace, but I was mistaken. We talk about things that make me uncomfortable. Stepping out of one’s comfort zone, to confront, to look truth in the eyes – It needs courage doesn’t it?

Continued…

So you think theatre can play an important role in bringing about change.

Theatre can be a powerful influence.

In the history of theatre performance in India, most plays were written for the stage, for the middle class and the elite.

After independence, the style of writing changed – but even these plays were for people who were wealthy enough to give patronage to theatres. In parallel, a movement began – of working with the common people and performing amid them.

Prithvi theatre and IPTA (Indian People’s Theatre Association) – used to go to towns and villages and perform. They did good work. Things got better organised when Safdar Hashmi and his contemporaries began the Jan Natya Manch (JANAM). Because of their efforts, this culture of street play performances began to bloom all over India.

I think it is more important to spread performance art by going to the people instead of getting the people to come to us.

What do you like most about Street plays?

 It is the democratization of theatre – One doesn’t need to be a playwright to write a play, you don’t need to think that “to perform, I have to be a part of big group”. The way street performances are structured, there is no such difficult task – it is a comfortable medium to express your thoughts - write it – gather 4- 5 like minded friends and present it to the world.

What I like the most is that street theatre broke this notion that only educated people get what ‘theatre’ is.  When we perform among an unidentified mass – and if among that mass – we have made a few people think about the issues we are trying to address – about caste, about women’s rights –I feel like we are doing justice.

What was it like? To perform street plays?

We mostly performed plays in old Bhopal where there was not much of a culture of street performances.

It’s an easy way out to say ‘We’ll only perform in places where we will be encouraged, where people get what we are saying, to get a round of applause, be contented with that and go back home.’ But it is exactly in those places where you are met with resistance that you should go.

 There will always be a handful of people who may change their attitude because of our performance.

We often had to take permission from the police --- In each place we met different kinds of audience – After the performance, we used to scatter among the crowd, talk to people about what they had seen.

The beautiful thing about street play is that when we see a play, it is not that we are passively taking it in.  We are continuously weaving together and connecting our own experiences to the play.

Is Jazba still active?

About the time I graduated, most of us went our separate ways. When I went on to do my Masters at Aligarh, I tried to revive Jazba. We took part in protests, tried to establish this culture of performance. we started a study circle called Fatima Sheikh - Every Friday we would do readings of stories, poetry, different issues and discuss it. But it wasn’t the same kind of circle as in Bhopal.

But I am not disheartened. I have learned from the whole experience.

There has been a transformation at the level of thoughts for all of us. All of us have carried the spirit of Jazba and tried in our own way to revive it wherever we were. The name or the group is not important but the effort is. And now in Bhopal there is a culture that is growing and that is a positive sign - The work is important  not the name. 

So, how important is it to have a circle of like minded peers in college?

Very important. One of the best things about being in such a circle or a group is that you are learning something – and you continuously start associating it with your personal identity.

The interesting thing about, when a diverse bunch of people with interest in various things come together to work is that every individual begins to grow. And there is collective motivation and energy to do something.

After all, individually how much will you read? Alone, I may end up reading a kind of literature, one type of movie, play  - but when we sit in a group –everyone comes from different backgrounds, different world views, different ideas – when these ideas get exchanged – that is when we actually develop, actually learn.

Indeed. What did this diverse group of people work towards?

Through Jazba, we started reading different literature, We started writing songs ( Jangeet), I play the djembe so we started performing these songs, then we seriously began to look at street plays as a medium. Our intention was to talk about issues relating to democratic rights. We would try to show people the importance of voting. Things like that.

Together we started writing plays, all of us used to pitch in, improvise, talk about issues.

We adapted a poem by Adam Gondvi  - Me chamaron ki gali tak le chalunga aap ko   and performed  it as a street play with 15 people – our idea was to take the tradition of long form poetry that exists in Hindi literature and restructure and perform it.

You took your interest in Hindi Literature seriously.

I studied Literature at Aligarh Muslim University for my masters. The library was fantastic – I began to study politics once there because I had already read most of what had been prescribed as part of the course. I tried to be politically active.

I felt at that point that things could be changed – that you cannot always struggle, fight and win on the social front but you have to get involved politically.

Why did you choose to study at Aligarh?

There were two reasons I chose to study in Aligarh- one, my fascination for the Braj region ,culture and language and two – a desire to know more about the Muslim community.

There was only one Muslim family in the village that I had lived in. And since childhood we had been kept apart – we couldn’t go to their homes to play – couldn’t meet them, talk to them, get to know them. 

And in the cities that I lived in, I came to know that houses are given for rent while asking if the person is Muslim and turned down. Or that people wanting to rent ask the owners that hopefully there are no Muslims in this building?

I wanted to know about them, about their culture - these two reasons made me go to Aligarh. I also had sympathy towards them – and a lot of preconceived notions - both positive and negative.

How do you mean?

All the places that I have been to in my life – all the preconceptions that I took along with me when I went to Aligarh were broken in a very dramatic way. Some were positive and some were negative.

Assumptions like - they are much oppressed. That they have been underprivileged throughout history.

Which was true to some extent but also different. 

I saw casteism there too – that Syeds, Pathans are considered upper caste – Qureshi, Ansari are considered subaltern groups. All the children in leadership roles at university, who worked as opinion leaders were high caste, high class.

I had a better understanding of  their festivals and celebrations – I  learnt about different sects among them – Barelvi,Deobandi  – some who believe only in the Quran, some who believe in Pir or Maulana – so there would be fights there relating to these differences of opinion regarding worship, differences in customs and traditions. Some didn’t want to be roommates with each other because of these differences.

And I also saw a lot of conservative people, moral policing in the name of culture – you need to wear this, you need to eat these kinds of things, you have to talk like this, sit like this, behave like this.

In the name of the tradition of Aligarh Muslim University – bandying the fact that is among the oldest most esteemed universities, there were a lot of antiquated beliefs and customs still being upheld there.

There were also issues with the women who studied with us. They had to live up to many expectations that were conservative in nature. In the name of tradition, they were constantly having to deal with subtle patriarchy that often their classmates had also internalized.  

So when your assumptions cleared, what remained?

Ultimately, what I came to understand is that in every place, the person who is disadvantaged because of the caste system, who doesn’t have money, or the family background is not good – these are the ones who are oppressed in every religion.

There are many of my friends who still believe that education should not be subsidized, that there should be fees, that government colleges should be shut down because student don’t “study” there, that there shouldn’t be reservation for disadvantaged groups.  

But the real meaning and implication of reservation really hits you when you go to these central universities. Children who come from very impoverished backgrounds need reservation. They struggle to pay the mess fees; their families don’t even have enough to spare pocket money. They arrange funds to study with great difficulty – borrowing here, scrimping there, giving tuitions to support themselves.

So yes whether we like to admit it or not, class really matters.

It must have been an interesting experience to be at Aligarh. Did you feel a bit like an outsider?

Not quite. See majority and minority is always there in all places – and yes in Aligarh it was there to some extent.

In Aligarh, there was a lot of regional politics. There was this magazine that our department used to bring out – I used to work in that magazine -so as I spoke to people, and expressed my views –people came to have an image of me as this person who reads, thinks and is interested in learning. They began to open up to me.

 But my ideas and writing met with approval if it was in their favour – when I started questioning things, about some issues that I felt I cannot ignore, I was met with resistance.

But this unwillingness to talk is common across all communities and religions isn’t it?

Yes, that’s true. So this is the case in all religions and sects that when an outsider questions something – everybody gets really disgruntled, offended.

But I also began to understand how “tolerance” and “secular attitude” is only skin deep in our society, across communities.

How do you mean?

Let me give you an example. If you speak to somebody with a leaning towards RSS, who follows their ideology, he/she will always come up with an argument that – “why do you feel that we hate Muslims, that is not really the case, See here is my friend Siddiqui, I got to his house, he brings Sevaiyyan for me on Eid and we sit together and eat…”

In my own house, I have noticed this. My sister had Muslim friends and they often came home. We sat together, shared our meals, but despite everything I could see the unconscious shadow of this knowledge of the friend as the “other” person. This deeply entrenched belief in our hearts about “us” and “them”.  And even if it is not in your heart, you can be rest assured that four-five people around you will drive it into your brain.

So, you tried to change things within your family.

Yes. And I feel they do rethink their earlier assumptions but even then, it is very hard for them to break out of this conditioning that they have had since childhood.

Of course, I am sure in the course of their own lives, my family has felt differently about things and understood the unjust nature of putting other people down just because of assumptions they have made. But the sad thing is there are other people who undo this – they build this pressure that if you don’t accept the norm, you yourself will be ostracized and alienated.

Nobody wants to be alienated.

I used to think things would be different in the cities. But really, the same people who live in the villages, who don’t change – go to the city, isn’t it? So if you don’t change, and your mentality remains the same, you cannot expect a cosmopolitan culture to transform you.

But despite that, one does grow, isn’t it? Take yourself for instance. You came from a background where prejudices hung heavy in the air but you managed to transcend them.

So if I turn inward and look at my own growth, the kind of company I had in school, the kind of behaviour and thinking that I shared with my peers and friends at that time and the person that I am today, there is a vast world of difference.

It’s a strange feeling when we revisit old friends.  When we meet them after many years, we come to know isn’t it? "I was this kind of person then and I am this kind of person now."

Yes. I know the feeling. As George Herbert put it, “The best mirror is an old friend.”

Part three of this conversation to be continued soon …